Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:14:53 EDT
Subject: [germanway] Hallo aus Kalifornien

From: Jen

Hi,
I am marrying a German man (in 2 months) and then moving to Germany. Does anyone know of any German wedding traditions I could incorporate into the ceremony? Being a man, my verlobte is not up on all his wedding hoopla. I know about the log sawing -- anything else?

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Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 23:07:20 -0400
Subject: [germanway] Re: Hallo aus Kalifornien

From: Gabriele U. Mecca

Congratulations on your up-coming nuptials....one tradition takes place the night before the wedding......all the friends bring and dump many junky items in your garage (or somewhere where they can sit at picnic tables and watch, eat and drink) while the two of you have to clean up the whole mess......no eating until everything is completely done....the theory is that if you can stick it out cleaning up the mess your friends and family leave for you to do - you can face life no matter what....

be careful you don't have anyone in construction - they like to bring old toilet bowls and sinks just to see how you can cope with that :)))

Gabriele :)

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Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 09:34:40 -0400
Subject: [germanway] Re: wedness

From: chris loewl

> one tradition takes place the night before the wedding......all the
> friends bring and dump many junky items in your garage

since i tend to stay as far from these "occassions" as i can, i'm not quite sure what happens in the tradition of the "brautentfuehrung" - kidnaping the bride - before the ceremony. but ive heard some strange stuff; its almost like a last-minute bachelor party for her. fugetaboutit

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Date: 02 Sep 1998 13:40:40 -0700
Subject: [germanway] Polterabend and Umlauts

From: Regina S Netterfield

Hi all,
I'm sure you have all heard about Polterabend. The night before the wedding, you are supposed to smash porcelain and glass or old flowerpots, just anything that will break. I guess it is for good luck.

Regina

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Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 22:03:52 EDT
Subject: [germanway] Re: Polterabend and Umlauts

From: Jen

Hi,
Thanks for all the wedding advice. I'll see what I can incorporate. I'm sure all the guests coming over from Germany will bring their own ideas.

Jen

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Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:24:04 -0700
Subject: [germanway] Re: Hallo aus Kalifornien

From: Stephen Weatherford

Please do tell the rest of us about the log sawing tradition. I've seen it on video once, but there was no explanation. What's the reason for this tradition?

thanks, Stephen

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Date: 03 Sep 1998 15:05:55 -0700
Subject: [germanway] Re: Hallo aus Kalifornien

From: Regina S Netterfield

Howdy,
the log sawing thing is done after the wedding ceremony. There will be a log on this log sawing horse and when the newly wed couple comes out of the church it awaits them as the first task they have to accomplish together as a married couple. It is supposed to show how they will manage to accomplish tough tasks in the future. The saw is one of those huge things you are supposed to pull back and forth between him and her. Maybe it is supposed to be erotic, who knows...

All the guests are standing around and cheer you on, but nobody is supposed to help, since this is a couple thing.

I think it is kinda silly because you are dressed to a white gown and tuxedo and get all dirty and sweaty trying to saw this sometimes huge log. Maybe I am just not very romantic...

Regina

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Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 18:18:06 -0700
Subject: [germanway] Re: Hallo aus Kalifornien

From: Harold Eddleman Ph.D.

> Stephen Weatherford wrote:
>
> Please do tell the rest of us about the log sawing tradition.

Speaking as a sawyer not as a German. It is impossible for some people to cooperate well enough to use a 2-man manual log saw. I have tried with some of those. They get very angry and stalk off. It is very easy (but tiring) if a person has a level head and a cooperative nature.
   I have never heard of this German tradition, but decades years ago I helped a young woman cut driftwood for her stove. She paid attention to my coaching and she did a superb job. She had never used a saw before. I was very impressed with her, and my love for her deepened very much because I thought if she can do this she can cope with other difficulties in life. Thus, I can see that any woodsman would be impressed with any girl that can hold up her end of the saw.
   There is a practical aspect. How is a family in the alps to heat their home if the wife can't help saw the wood? My mother helped Dad saw wood until I was big enough to help. He could do it by himself, but what better way for a wife to show her devotion than by helping?
   Which reminds me of the old country joke that if a farmer really appreciates a good wife, he will get her a good sharp axe so she can always cut a good supply of wood for the kitchen stove.
   My German ancestor lost her husband to Indians in Kentucky about 1780 and again her wood cutting skills must have been needed to rear the son that was left after the Indians killed or captured the other kids.
   I have never won a log-sawing contest, but I have lots of experience sawing logs quickly in the forests and fire fighting.
   Here is another example: My Aunt needed a dead black locust tree cut. That is a very hard wood. The tree was about 40 cm diameter and our saw was a heavy monster. I decided to see whether my 6 year old son could help me cut it down. Felling a tree is many times more difficult than sawing a log.
   I was astonished how well he did. When we had it half way through, the neighbor came over and insisted on taking my son's end of the saw. It was a nightmare. He finally gave up as we two big men were unable to move the saw as he had wobbled the cut so badly. He gave up and left. My son and I began again on a whole new notch and soon had the tree down. I was very proud of my son. I would never have dreamed someone so small could have done so well. Was denkst du, Glenn?
---
Harold Eddleman, Ph.D. Microbiology, Genetics, Mol. Biology, Education

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Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:34:31 EDT
Subject: [germanway] Re: Hallo aus Kalifornien

From: Jen

Hi,
It's my understanding that sawing the log with a crosscut saw symbolizes working together as a married couple. I've also heard that certain wedding guests have been known to drive spikes down the log to make it impossible to saw through. I've actually only seen it in a friend's wedding pictures.

If anyone else knows the symbolism behind this ritual, I'd love to know.

Jen

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Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:05:40 +0100 (NFT)
Subject: [germanway] Celebrations around the Wedding

From: Thomas Fischnaller

Hi there,
I'm from Austria and there it is very traditional and popular to celebrate things around the wedding. One ceremony was mailed in this list, the ceremony with the sawing of the log. This is old tradition in Austria, special in Tyrol, too.

There are two things which does it mean:
1. The "first" hard work the married has to do successful
2. The ceremony is a tradition in the alpine regions and comes from older times. On weddings from (alpine) farmers it was like a check if the wedding pair is able to lead the farm and to do hard work. The women didn't had white wedding dresses. The dresses where "ethnic dresses" and they were robust against wood splinters and resin. So, in our times it could be a problem with the dirt, but it's not that big deal. Friends of mine had to do that ceremony and there were no problems.

There are a lot of other ceremonies at weddings here in Europe. I just know some in Austria, Switzerland, Germany and in the US (because my uncle lives there). The ceremonies vary from town to town and from region to region. Typical for weddings in Tyrol is that they are more than one afternoon or one night, they are celebrated with the family and the friends for a few days. So, you can imagine that there are a lot of ceremonies around the wedding.

Thomas

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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:48:57 EDT
Subject: [germanway] Re: E-mail search

From: Jen

Hi,
Marrying German men and moving to Germany must be catching. I am getting married to a German man in November. Are you getting married in the US or over in Germany? If you get married here, you will need to go to the Standesamt once you get there. You'll need copies of your birth certificate (2 I think), marriage certificate and parents' marriage certificate. These all have to be translated officially (read: $$$$). In addition, you'll need the application for resident alien. You can get this at the German consulate in the US. You'll also need (the list goes on and on) a Letter of Good Conduct from your local PD to show that you are not a dangerous criminal, and a letter from a physician stating that you are not contagious with things like AIDS, syphilis and hepatitis. I'm in the middle of all this right now. Another good resource is the Newcomer's Guide by Main City, which is a magazine available in the Frankfurt area. Maybe your fiance could pick one up for you. It was in most of the train stations.

Does anyone know of any English-speaking organizations or clubs in the Ulm area? I know there are several in Frankfurt, but that doesn't help me much.

Jen

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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:56:28 +0200
Subject: [germanway] Re: E-mail search

From: Tracey Widauer

Hi Jen
Where did you meet your fiance? I assume you will be living around Ulm? There are many American societies around the military installations. For example, here in Darmstadt, down in Heildelberg, around Wiesbaden and also near Kaiserslautern.

I wish I knew of some Aussie ones :((

tracey

PS - it is catching, but the German men are so cute :))

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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:39:40 EDT
Subject: [germanway] Re: E-mail search

From: Carrie

In a message dated 9/10/98 2:59:14 AM Mountain Daylight Time, tracey writes:

<< but the German men are so cute:)) >>

Amen Tracey!!! ;-) Gotta love those accents...

Carrie

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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 21:13:12 EDT
Subject: [germanway] Re: E-mail search

From: Jen

Hi Tracey,
I met him in Chicago, actually. I was living there and he was doing research there for 2 years, and a mutual friend introduced us. Lately we've been doing that very long distance relationship thing.

I'm hoping to find some kind of English speaking organization. The Ulm area doesn't seem to have a lot, since they've closed most of the military installations around there. If I hear of an Aussie one I'll let you know!

Jen

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Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 19:34:33 -0400
Subject: [germanway] Questions on resident permits and jobs in Germany

From: Rodney Pace

Dear List:
I am in need of some help and seeking answers to some questions. My fiancée lives in Germany and is in medical school there and works part-time as a nurse. She is Turkish by heritage but was born and raised in Germany and recently became a German citizen. I am wanting to move there so that we can be married. I am not the most skilled person in the work force but I'm not an idiot either :-) , and I can learn most anything that is required of me. I have a college degree but have worked outside my major for some time now.

I have several questions.....1) How can someone here in the US with my background go about finding a job in Germany...a job for which I would be qualified....really just any job to start with. 2) should I get a resident permit once I am there or seek a permanent resident visa. 3) I have read that one of the requirements for getting a resident permit is that you must be able to prove that you can support yourself financially there (thus a job), but that this may not be required of you if you are married to a German....what are the details with this? Would this be necessary if I were married to a German living in the state that Dortmund and Bochum are in? (I want to work once I am there but I also want to get there and get a resident permit as soon as I can in order to be with my fiancée.). If it is possible, what are the monetary requirements on her part?

I know that these questions are a lot, but I would greatly appreciate any help that anyone could give me. The bottom line is that I'm in love and want to be with her as soon as I can. I'm not sure how to proceed though.

Thank you so much.

Rodney Pace

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Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 21:26:05 EDT
Subject: [germanway] Re: Questions on resident permits and jobs in Germany

From: Jen

Hi,
If you marry a German citizen, you are automatically granted a residence and work permit. Believe me, it's a lot easier to get married over here than in Germany.

The consulate has a lot of information of what you'll need to do to either get married or obtain a permit.

Other resources you can check out are the Newcomer's Guide by Main City News (a magazine found only in the Frankfurt area), or the book, "Living and Working in Germany."

I'm marrying a German man and moving over there in a few weeks, so I could give you a little more insight then.

Good luck,

Jen

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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 07:13:52 +0100
Subject: [germanway] Re: Questions on resident permits and jobs in Germany

From: Ronald J. Bartle

Rodney Pace wrote:
>
> I am in need of some help and seeking answers to some questions. My
> fiancée lives in Germany and is in medical school there and works
> part-time as a nurse.

First I must say that I am no lawyer and not being such cannot offer legal advice. For the sake of discussion from my own experiance etc. Coming from the US your _only_ right of residence here in Germany would be on the strength of being married to the German national. On the other hand I have read that it is handled much more critically when it is a German female and a non-German male than the other way round. Whether this _should_ be so or not I don't know but have read that in realitiy it _is_ that way.

You will both have to take proper legal advice before moveing ahead on this anyhow I feel. For one thing there may be laws relating to her brining you in as a husband when she is newly naturalized. IE Perhaps the argument could be made that her becoming a German was simply a device to get you into the country and so on. Like I say you need to have her visit a German lawyer specializing in naturalization and immigration law. Shure that will cost money. Or she needs to go to the local library and get the help of the librarian to plough thru all the legal texts on this matter. That will be cheaper in cash but much more demanding in time and intellectually etc.

To avoid problems in general - after probably arriving here on a tourist visa - and assumeing all goes well - then getting married within the validity of the tourist visa (from the states 3 months I feel...?) then sort out the business with work permit.... coming from outside the EU you need both residence and work permits. The trick is to have you both avoid the social welfare office here like the plague till you residence has been firmly established of course. If after a person has worked for a couple of years etc then need welfare for a few days/weeks to get by until the next job .. that would probably be no problem. What would be a problem is if you arrive and have no way to support yourself/yourselves, before having done a fair bit of work and paid taxes etc etc.

On the oneway site there are whole areas of authorative info on such matters I am shure - go cruise arround it and you will find them.

ron b.

---
Ron Bartle - Royal Air Force Veteran - Hobby Journalist
-24h wired Bed & Breakfast in Berlin, Germany.

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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 07:19:33 +0100
Subject: [germanway] Re: Questions on resident permits and jobs in Germany

From: Ronald J. Bartle

Jen wrote:
>
> If you marry a German citizen, you are automatically granted a residence and
> work permit. Believe me, it's a lot easier to get married over here than in Germany.

I can certainly confirm that it can be a worrisome process trying to get married in Germany. I am a Britisher - long term resident in Germany - and during the cold war years had previously been married to a Polish lady.

The burocratic barriers that were set up to me re-marrying a German lady were unbelievable. It took about 8 months going flat out. (Her wearing a pretty slim dress for the wedding was by no means possible by that time.)

ron b.

---
Ron Bartle - Royal Air Force Veteran - Hobby Journalist

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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 09:35:33 +0200
Subject: [germanway] Re: Questions on resident permits and jobs in Germany

From: Tracey Widauer

Hi

I am an Australian and I came to Germany to marry my husband. It was in the Standesamt. There was a lot of paper work involved and you MUST make sure everything is translated into German for them. I mean EVERYTHING!

Once you are married and the next lot of paper work is filled out, the Arbeitsamt allows you a work permit. Then you are able to search for work. They have many DM 620 jobs... basically part time jobs for people who just want to do anything. For example, I am a qualified teacher in Australia, but here I am working at MacDonald's. My German skills aren't bad, but by no means good. Do you have a knowledge of the language? It sure helps. Feel free to email me privately if you want more details.

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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 09:33:50 -0400
Subject: [germanway] Re: Questions on resident permits and jobs in Germany

From: chris loewl

> I have read that it is handled much more critically when it is a German
> female and a non-german male than the other way round.

this is cuz vacationing german women tend to bring their exotic, sweet talking, beach boy lovers home with them :D in order to get them a work permit. this is a "scheinehe" (but of COURSE they have a word for this) - illegal. and stupid too, cuz in case of divorce she has to support the dude. a real smooth operator used to be able to collect welfare and/or unemployment money to boot. german men usually marry, say a thai girl, for one thing: to have a love slave. but you're gonna have to convince the establishment that it is indeed love.

> Perhaps the argument could be made that her becoming a German
> was simply a device to get you into the country and so on.

as far as marrying here and then going to germany: my german pal married his bride here in fla. to avoid all the costs and paperwork. it was much nicer on the beach anyway. but when he got back they made him pay something like DM 500 to simply translate the marriage certificate and sundry documents. sooo german.

as far as jobs go... .... (continued in Topic 5)

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